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Forum:Monkey Fist Article
Monkey Fist's Status (Dap00's comments copied here by MKnopp) Someone added Monkey Fist to the Deceased category, and I undid that. But in case anyone wondered why, I thought I should explain further. From what I could see, the only two reasons someone might consider Monkey Fist dead are because he was frozen in stone when last seen, and DNAmy had removed him from Yono's temple. I doubt either of those are permanent. If Amy got him out, I imagine she could put him back. And if Monkey Fist replaced Yono the Destroyer, then it stands to reason he could be summoned just as Yono was. So at best he's sleeping, not dead. If everyone that got frozen in stone was instantly dead, then the events of Oh No! Yono! never would have happened because Yono would be dead. And even if you allow that was a special case, then Rufus, Master Sensei, Kim, and the Monkey Ninjas would all be dead. So I hope that's reason enough to state with finality that frozen in stone is worlds apart from being deceased. Especially when it's canon that the magic that causes the stone condition can be undone, which leaves the victim very much alive. - Dap00 00:54, February 7, 2013 (UTC) :I agree completely with this assessment. As do many of the others who have discussed this. :Honestly, given the nature of Kim Possible, I don't think any character can honestly be stated as being deceased. :Mknopp (talk) 02:27, February 7, 2013 (UTC) : I have to wonder why we even have a "Deceased" category. In looking it over, there are currently 7 articles in it, and NONE of them are either definitively dead, or were ever alive to *be* dead. "Eric" and the Bebes are at best destroyed, and considering that the Bebes *already* returned after being destroyed once, it should not apply to them. Wars -hok and -monga have already been determined as "appears to have been killed", as there was no definitive proof. And finally, the fates of DNAmy's critters (I also notice her "animal men" were not included) are unknown. In fact, one of my fanfics opened with them still alive and having to be dealt with by Bonnie the Vampire Slayer (fanfic, but making the point) and it only worked because canon did not say they were definitely dead or gone. Love Robin (talk) 04:55, February 7, 2013 (UTC) :The deceased category is a carryover from an earlier time. It is one that I am fully in favor of deleting. :Mknopp (talk) 13:55, February 7, 2013 (UTC) : Tai Shing Pek Kwar In Real Life TSPK are 2 separate styles taught under 1 "School", like "Food & Gas" are 2 things sold at one place, and the name of the *school* is often confused as 1 style, that of the more popular Monkey. It is a common misnomer. In Canon Fiske specifically states he is obsessed with "Tai Shing Pek Kwar! Monkey Kung Fu!", with no mention of Axe Hand. Plus, the comment was under Trivia, which we've already established the precedence of allowing small speculative statements, such as fans considering Tara's last name. Love Robin (talk) 22:15, April 23, 2013 (UTC) :That is true. Although, my concern has been growing with the direction that many trivia sections have been taking with multiple levels of "trivia" that are little more than arguments regarding said trivia. :The difference between this and Tara's last name is that this is not what I consider a fanon belief. (Where I regard fanon to mean a prevalent belief that is present in many fan created works by multiple authors. For instance, Mr. Stoppable's first name being Gene is fanon as it is present in numerous fan created works by multiple authors.) Because this is not what I consider fanon then it is simply a conjecture by a single or small group of fans. Which increases the likelihood of disagreement. There isn't a lot to argue about the statement, "Many fans believe that Tara's last name is King." It is pretty much a fact. Many fans do believe that Tara's last name is King and have codified it into their fan created work. While a statement like the knowledge of Axe Hand not being in Monty's skill set is a lot more controversial because it isn't widely codified by several authors in fan created work, thus it is more original research. :All of that being said. It isn't a battle that I chose to wage. If you feel that strongly about it I will not contest you putting it back in. However, don't be surprised if others contest it in the future. :Mknopp (talk) 12:54, April 24, 2013 (UTC) :::My reasoning to not only place it in Trivia, but as a 2nd teir statement was to distance it from Canon. Real Life, TSPK is a school which teaches 2 styles, but most people only associate the name with the most popular style. This is inherently wrong, however it is a misnomer which seems the writers did not know/care about, and thus made its way into Canon as well. But I'm not out to *correct* canon, just… footnote it. Thus why, "Considering Fiske's obsession with all things simian, he probably did not bother learning Pek Kwar." I suppose "probably" may be a bit too… authorative, and could be lessened to "might" or "may not have". :::Thing is, it is not a discussion of fanon. It is closer in nature to the RL cheerleader uniform rules footnote with the secondary counterpoint of the rule not existing during the show's run. :::I agree there should be no arguments in Trivia, Notes, and Errors. However a "Point-Counterpoint" is useful to head off Edit Wars, or at least a cycle of reediting the same point by a series of editors, *mainly* because many do not bother with either checking the Recent Changes or Talks and Forums, or any of the *other* aspects of this or any other wikis' "behind the curtain" running of things where 4 or 5 of us bother. They just waltz right into articles and place something in without ever bothering to see why after all this time, they are "the first" to put it there or if it's been addressed already. So Point-Counterpoint goes a ways to head that off. Beyond that, it should be pointed, and taken to, Forum or Talk. :::Otherwise, for example, the "error" in Hidden Talent where Ron is not in his pants but in them in the boat will go through a constant cycle of being removed because Ron was clearly seen dressing on the run… in… remove… rinse, repeat… :::As for Tara, and this probably needs to be its own discussion, but *exactly* how much is this wiki to address fanon? Because I thought this one was to be Canon. Plus, there is a Wiki for fanon. Love Robin (talk) 22:24, April 24, 2013 (UTC) :I don't really have anything to add on this particular topic, but I do have a question that's somewhat related. Monkey Fist's mastery of Monkey Kung Fu isn't really explained in much detail, other than being part of his obsession with monkeys. And this is really just personal opinion talking, but I always felt in order to be considered a master of any martial art style, that would at least require some knowledge of other styles. Because if some guy (or his heroine cheerleader partner) proficient in any other style can just walk up and beat you, people likely wouldn't consider you a master for very long. Which leads me to believe that Monkey Fist likely had some training in more than just one (or two, since it's being debated) styles. Especially if he was comfortable enough to then turn around and train monkeys in combat. Only I'm nowhere near familiar enough with the various styles to identify them just by watching him. So I wondered if anyone had actually recognized any of his stances or moves as belonging to any particular style. :Some other points that may or may not support my idea, and call for speculation: *If Monkey Fist were only trained in the one style and nothing else, and Kim knew 16... seems like she could have called in a favor somewhere to pick up Monkey Kung Fu for herself. Or better still, talked Ron into flying back to Japan to get more practice with his. I just wonder sometimes why Shego rated a plasma-resistant battlesuit, but no one thought to get a handle on Monkey Kung Fu. Or at least an animal handler. And this assumes that Monkey Fist did not pick up some other styles either in, or between his fights with Kim. *The types of combat taught at Yamanouchi were not really specified, other than Hirotaka knowing Mantis. I would like to think if their founder mastered Monkey style, then they would certainly continue teaching it. And that would partially explain how Ron improved, instead of blaming it all on occasional magic. And might further explain Monkey Fist's initial interest in the school. He might have even learned from a graduate. - Dap00 00:04, April 25, 2013 (UTC) I may not *know* Monkey, but I know enough martial arts to recognize various forms. I put in the effort for my own writings of fight scenes. The artists of KP did not put in as much research or authenticity into Fiske's fights, as opposed to say, the makers of Avatar Last Airbender, but against a comparison video I can see Tall or Standing Monkey in his form, mixed with some Wooden Monkey. A *master* of a style knows that style inside out upside backwards. It takes years to master 1 style. To learn another requires unlearning many of the forms used in others, thus each additional style takes years as well, if not as many. Unless a natural. *Grandmasters* often know more than one style. In fact, it was a grandmaster in both Tai Shing and Pek Kwar who founded the school of TSPK. And Fiske is obsessed with simian to the extreme exclusion of nearly all else. He certainly never changes his stances or forms, which to switch to another style would require in stances and posture, especially mid-battle. Outside of my fics, and in most of them, Kim is not a master, although in a couple of my fics it is implied she holds herself back from advancing, in any one style. Problem with Kim learning Monkey is Ron's freakouts. My fanon has it that Kim was set to take Monkey but Ron freaking out caused her to skip it (one story outline has it Ron did not go to summer camp, did not gain most his phobias, so Kim eventually took Monkey taught by a slightly younger Sensei with Fiske his assistant/top student and Yori a classmate, and Kim taking prophesied UMM of MMP in Ron's place in MF Strikes)… any way, most cases I operate with Kim *familiar* with 16 styles, but not recognizing she is a master of any of them. Freaking out is also why Ron tends to shy away from learning and instead slacker-depends upon MMP to help him out, which it doesn't. shrug Love Robin (talk) 01:50, April 25, 2013 (UTC) ::LR raises perhaps the most important point of this entire discussion, should we even have fanon on this wiki? At the time that the whole Tara thing started there wasn't a KP Fanon Wiki. Now there is. ::Personally, I am in favor of moving all fanon and fan speculation to the KP Fanon Wiki and we simply place a link on each page to the character page in the KP Fanon wiki. By the same token, I would expect that we could get a link on each KP Fanon character page back to our character's page. At least that is my take. ::Thoughts? ::Mknopp (talk) 12:13, April 25, 2013 (UTC)